Curse

Symbol · Jan 16, 2007, 12:03 AM // 00:03

How about a combination of the other suggestions.

Add the clause, "if you remove an enchant lose 2 energy or sacrifice 10% health". Now the grenth guy can't just sit at 0 and spam skills as soon as energy hits 5, he has to to decide whether to wait until he can pay the full cost of his scythe attacks, or attack anyway and eat a substantial sac (might be worthwhile if it secures a kill). Makes using the skill a little less mindless.

twicky_kid · Jan 16, 2007, 12:34 AM // 00:34

I would change wild blow first.

I would add a clause to grenth to only trigger on melee attacks so things like bow attacks could not be used.

In the end grenth is going to be needed unless enchant removal is seriously overhauled.

Coloneh · Jan 16, 2007, 12:47 AM // 00:47

I really dont think its that overpowered (and neither is wildblow) Its just that other enchantment removals are so underpowered.

Patccmoi · Jan 16, 2007, 01:13 AM // 01:13

What is it exactly with people wanting enchant removal to be totally insane? Should the 100s of enchants just be cute skills that, in the end, are simply unusable out of arenas because any team packing enchant removal can make them all useless?

Attunements, EProd, monk prot line, dervishes buffs... with things like Grenth running around, those are all a gamble to use. No other enchant removal was ever remotely close to that. And note that NF brought a damn lot of good non-elite enchant removal (Rending Touch? Come on, you can fit that on any melee that can afford /D to have them remove an enchant every 10s for cheap with no downside if they're not enchanted), but they're all pointless when you can just pack Grenth that is better than 5 non-elite enchant removals together.

Enchants should be something that you can cover relatively safely and that are still somewhat hard to remove. They cost something to use, it's not like targets are miraculously enchanted. If you want to strip a single target from mass enchant, necros have a couple of decent options. It's fine that Dervishes do too, but there's a limit in how easy it should be, and mostly how CONSTANT it should be. Rend Enchant/Gaze of Contempt/Lingering Curse have a recharge along. Grenth just doesn't really for a full minute, and you can play slightly more defensive while it's down (but you can do enough damage while it's up anyway).

I don't see why a target with 5 defensive enchants on his back is something that you should be able to just wail on and strip them all. There is that thing called target switching that allows you to go on the guy right next to your target that doesn't have an enchant on his back, and if the other team wants him protted too then it's another 20-30E that they have to throw at him, and you can target switch faster than they regen that energy. You don't need to strip enchants to beat them. Even if Shield of Absorption prevented +30 damage per swing, it would still have 10s recharge and you could still switch target after it's thrown (though i agree this one needs a nerf atm too).

Grenth is currently allowing teams with no organization to roll over more experienced ones because all they have to know is how to use Burning Isles as Guild Hall and how to press T. It's pressure for dummies just like Shadow of Haste is ganking for dummies. Things like that don't add to the game, they take a lot of depth out of it because all the other good strategies and tactics are simply pointless to do when you can just pack those skills and go the easy way.

Farin · Jan 16, 2007, 03:03 AM // 03:03

I think it wouldn't be as bad as it currently is if a Grenth's dervish couldn't destroy your enchants and keep you perma snared. Harrier's Grasp needs a good ol' nerf.

Khift · Jan 16, 2007, 06:52 AM // 06:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thom Bangalter

It's still really broken without wild blow, we run a D/Rt with sight beyond sight.

The D/Rt SBS Grenths is just as broken if not worse than the D/W Grenths with Wild Blow. Now not only are you capable of powering through enchantments you also get the ability to ignore blind. Stances can't be cast on other people and very few defensive stances are even run nowadays -- occasionally Dark Escape on a monk over GoLE and if you see a ranger he'll have Natural Stride but that's it. Blind is much more prevalent. In theory this could make Aegis a counter as if you don't hit you don't remove enchants, but in practice it never really has an effect.

My preferred nerf would have to be making it cost 25e and then having it strip an enchantment from you every time it strips an enchantment from your target. I think we can all agree that the skill deserves the 25e cost and having it strip your own enchantments removes almost all of the build's synergy and flexibility -- in order to run grenths you have to max out scythe mastery and mysticism to make it worth having leaving you with no attribute points to spare elsewhere and the only other useable skills with that attribute spread except for scythe attacks are enchantments. Well, okay, imbue health too. But basically it'll restrict you to a bar with 7 scythe attacks and it'll also make you very wary of anyone targetting you -- grenths dervs are already easy pickings, being a 70AL target far up in your midline, and if you aren't careful here you could end up just as easily stripping your own prots when you get targetted.

Wilhelm · Jan 16, 2007, 07:10 AM // 07:10

Considering it's of the Necromancer tradition to Sacrifice health, why not sac a % of health, each time an enchant is removed.

twicky_kid · Jan 16, 2007, 03:36 PM // 15:36

If they change Grenth's to strip 1 enchant from the target and 1 from himself that is not a nerf, its a buff.

5e for attack skill enchant removed I get 4e back from myst. Giving Grenth's an infinite energy engine would not be a good idea.

Thomas.knbk · Jan 16, 2007, 04:20 PM // 16:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by twicky_kid

If they change Grenth's to strip 1 enchant from the target and 1 from himself that is not a nerf, its a buff.

5e for attack skill enchant removed I get 4e back from myst. Giving Grenth's an infinite energy engine would not be a good idea.

You can do that with reversal of fortune

Patccmoi · Jan 16, 2007, 04:51 PM // 16:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thomas.knbk

You can do that with reversal of fortune

Atm not really. RoF spam doesn't do anything for the Grenth unless he's under attack. Enchants have to end, and recasting them doesn't count as ending. You can do that if you spam RoF and the Grenth spams Pious Assault/Irresistible Sweep or something like that though, but he has to be careful not to strip something he wants to keep.

Xenex Xclame · Jan 16, 2007, 06:56 PM // 18:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by twicky_kid

If they change Grenth's to strip 1 enchant from the target and 1 from himself that is not a nerf, its a buff.

5e for attack skill enchant removed I get 4e back from myst. Giving Grenth's an infinite energy engine would not be a good idea.

Ok , your right here, but my main idea is to make them have to pay for something which they cant keep up with all the time.So make them think about when to do it and when not to,otherwise they would run into problems.

I like the sac health one, i just dont think its gonna slow them down, they just keep pouding their target and the monk heals them.

Thomas.knbk · Jan 16, 2007, 07:05 PM // 19:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xenex Xclame

I like the sac health one, i just dont think its gonna slow them down, they just keep pouding their target and the monk heals them.

The main advantage of this one would be that it prevents them from using AoG under heavy pressure, when the monks are needed elsewhere. Even a small health sac would be a huge nerf.

Khift · Jan 16, 2007, 07:45 PM // 19:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by twicky_kid

If they change Grenth's to strip 1 enchant from the target and 1 from himself that is not a nerf, its a buff.

5e for attack skill enchant removed I get 4e back from myst. Giving Grenth's an infinite energy engine would not be a good idea.

So let me see, losing access to:

-- Extend Enchantments
-- Sight Beyond Sight
-- Featherfoot Grace
-- Harrier's Grasp
-- Faithful Intervention
-- Heart of Fury
-- Zealous Renewal
-- Pious Haste
-- Whirling Charge
-- Mystic Sweep
-- Crippling Sweep
-- Lyssa's Assault
-- Irresistable Sweep
-- Pious Assault
-- Twin Moon Sweep

Makes it a buff? Sorry, I'm not seeing it. It'll make it better with MoM smiters, but MoM smiters are terrible in the current mesmer-heavy meta anyways.

Chewbacca Defense · Jan 16, 2007, 08:22 PM // 20:22

For the Grenth's issue how about this:

For each enchantment lost you loose x..y% of life and target foe gains {some multiplier} life you lost.

That way it's a fair trade, so the Grenth can't keep spamming, but still is able to remove enchantments and the target foe has some survivability.

Patccmoi · Jan 16, 2007, 09:07 PM // 21:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chewbacca Defense

For the Grenth's issue how about this:

For each enchantment lost you loose x..y% of life and target foe gains {some multiplier} life you lost.

That way it's a fair trade, so the Grenth can't keep spamming, but still is able to remove enchantments and the target foe has some survivability.

Hrm, a life sac is enough. You don't have to heal your target on top, a Grenth Derv is still aiming for a kill!

I'd be happy with a somewhat more balanced Grenth. But really, if it was also something like 25E activation, 10..30..37s duration with 60s disabling (duration/recharge could be same for all avatars, energy cost could be lower on some others) i think it'd help balance them a lot. Atm a good part of the problem (same with Melandru really) is that they last so freaking long that once active you have to handle the pressure for a long long time. If they last for a shorter duration (but can still be kept up the same % of the time), interrupts would be more meaningful, energy cost would be more meaningful, and you could work on handling the pressure while they're up knowing they will actually end at some point.

HolyHawk · Jan 16, 2007, 10:42 PM // 22:42

Might not be a solution, but you could rise the recharge to 30 seconds, so interrupts can actually be viable. Patccmoi's idea is also good, part of the problem is that it last way too long, you can't keep up with heals, and prot doesn't work at this time.

twicky_kid · Jan 17, 2007, 04:12 AM // 04:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by Khift

So let me see, losing access to:

-- Extend Enchantments
-- Sight Beyond Sight
-- Featherfoot Grace
-- Harrier's Grasp
-- Faithful Intervention
-- Heart of Fury
-- Zealous Renewal
-- Pious Haste
-- Whirling Charge
-- Mystic Sweep
-- Crippling Sweep
-- Lyssa's Assault
-- Irresistable Sweep
-- Pious Assault
-- Twin Moon Sweep

Makes it a buff? Sorry, I'm not seeing it. It'll make it better with MoM smiters, but MoM smiters are terrible in the current mesmer-heavy meta anyways.

This will be so abusable with a smiter its not even funny. There won't be any problem for cover enchants. You only need to remove 2 enchants for Grenth to work and that is Aegis and SoA. Everything else cost too much energy and doesn't last long enough. There is no real need to spam to make Grenth's work effectively. God forbid a dervish use a stance for once.

You don't need Grenth's to be able to cripple, strip enchant, avoid all prot, makes block and evade useless, 100+ dmg crits on normal swings and all the other goodies that comes along with a dervish. All that stuff is just icing on the cake. Grenth is there to keep the prot down and counter the meta game.

Everything you mentioned can be outsourced to another class. All you need grenth to do is keep the block, evade, and SoA off the target. These guys are usually paired with a mel's dervish so I don't really understand why you need 2 dervishs with harrier's and such.

Honestly I'm more afraid of mel's than I am Grenth. At least I can shut down Grenth with cripple, blind, and other anti melee. You can still spike Grenth's too. That's for another discussion though.

Grenth is simply anti meta. With 5-6 enchants on most monks bars sure its going to be affective.

Symbol · Jan 17, 2007, 07:54 AM // 07:54

It is not "anti-meta". Prots are what people use to save focused target. This has been the case since prophecies. The only significant additions since then are spirit bond (factions) and SoA (nightfall).

tomcruisejr · Jan 18, 2007, 01:06 AM // 01:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bugeater

I hope you had your browser window open for 20 minutes and didn't read Patccmoi's post just before yours where he addressed exactly that with his good friend, logic.

wildblow is scythe friendly, spammable, always hit in critical. i would laugh at myself if ill use called shot or whatever.

if you wanna nerf grenth, give it a definite number of enchants to remove. say 7 enchant removed and grenth will end.

Patccmoi · Jan 18, 2007, 06:38 AM // 06:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by tomcruisejr

wildblow is scythe friendly, spammable, always hit in critical. i would laugh at myself if ill use called shot or whatever.

if you wanna nerf grenth, give it a definite number of enchants to remove. say 7 enchant removed and grenth will end.

Remove 7 enchants with a 120 sec disable? It would be down just way way too long.

And yes, Wild Blow is Scythe friendly, but it doesn't make it broken for that reason. There's still no +damage, and if you have some +armor buffs (WY!, Stand your ground!, etc.) an attack with no +damage ends up not doing all that much. It's definitely a good attack for scythe, but i disagree with it being too strong.